Forum Topic

I am not sure if I should thank any previous respondents in this thread, I am not sure if engaging keyboard warriors is the right thing to do.Calling the designers and engineers in the highways department idiots would require someone to have an ability to understand the design and on the design basis.  I note from this thread that there is an apparent lack of understanding of the basis of traffic management/design.That is in essence a wider issue, a feeling or lived experience, is not the same as fact.  It may be part of it, but as we saw on the data for ltn25 the ‘vast majority’ of the spencer road consultation the experiences of the respondents did not reflect reality!Wrt to the examples listed in the previous post, where roundabout or junction designs are challenged on the basis of experienced traffic changes are misguided at best.  Unless we know for fact that these have not been designed in accordance with the relevant design standards or have been simulated appropriately we cannot have a meaningful discussion.  And no one can establish if any of the ‘examples’ are evidence of poor design and/or related to the intelligence of the designers.  I think it says more about the person writing it than the professionals doing the work.If I was to venture a guess of the reason for the ‘examples’ I would think the basis of the design may have been exceeded.  Meaning; Traffic levels (number of vehicles and the duration of the peak traffic flows) may have exceeded the design traffic levels and thus may be the reason for the ‘examples’ of traffic congestion events.The LTNs may have been poorly designed and thought through, for sure, but to list a number of ‘effects’ of LTN25, without any data to support the conclusion these are guesses at best.  In the same way that, I am sure the spencer road consultation respondents were convinced that traffic levels had increased with LTN when in fact they had drastically decreased.  Without data it is not possible to draw conclusions that any rat running down Newburgh is due to the LTN.  I’m not saying it’s not the LTN cause and effect, but we don’t know until data is captured.But if that rat running bothers anyone, the data shows us that the LTN25 has drastically reduced traffic through poets corner (as per the data), traffic that used to pass the other side of the said primary school - or should we only care about rat running in certain areas?  The traffic on churchfield road has remained steady it is worth noting.If the examples’ of why LTN 25 isn’t working is evidence of how the “vast majority of people saw [ltn25] were horribly flawed” I am not sure that the decision makers should follow the ‘vast majority’ opinion.  It is the responsibility of our elected leaders to base their decision on facts and data and take decisions that, on balance, are the best for the society.On balance, and based on the facts/data available, ltn 25 seems suitable to me, but the increase in traffic on horn lane is concerning, we have to look at this in more detail and understand if this is due to ltn 25 or if the increase in traffic throughout London has increased by the same amount.  But even if it is found that the increase in traffic on horn lane is due to displaced traffic that previously passed through poets corner; I return to the fact that horn lane is a B road with controlled crossings etc and I would keep LTN 25 based on the improved safety for all (kids) walking through LTN 25.  The air quality issue I think we need to address through other means.I understand this is an emotive issue for some, but to call someone an idiot without understanding the issues and then defending it with ‘evidence’ without any data or facts has really made me question if I should even respond.I really fear when experts and professionals are called idiots without basis and only because some else ‘feel’ something different.  A society basing its, often rage-like, opinions on emotions and rejecting data, facts and listening to experts is what lead to Trump, brexit and antivaccination and I ‘feel’ (!) that is taking us in the wrong direction.

Ossian Olsén ● 956d

Hi Louise, you are listing issues that you have observed and are linking these issues to LTN and to the widening of pedestrian walking areas.  I am afraid that is far too simplistic.  There are other factors at play.  You may not know the basis for why bus stops have been redesigned, it does not make it “for no apparent reason”.  “busses cases traffic to wait behind”, that may be exactly the reason for the redesign, but it is not my field of expertise nor do I know the current design approach.  There will be British standards that provides the ‘best’ design.  The BSs change with time and are based on case studies and empirical assessments, they are not perfect.I completely agree that cycle lanes would be safer, but I suspect there are restrictions that mean we cannot create these everywhere, for example under bridge road width.  Not sure if that was your point.  In fact, I may be missing the point you try and make.  But my view is, and why I respond, is because ‘we’ have to stop dealing in anecdotal ‘evidence’ and look at data before we can draw conclusions.  Ltns aren’t always good not always bad, but for some reason on this forum contributors are either for or against something without any interest in facts.If the data shows that ltns are, holistically, ‘bad’ the council should act accordingly, and vice versa.  But to rely on your perceived reality, backed by others who feel the same on a forum, is not evidence of it being true.  It feels that way, confirmation bias has a way of doing that, which is why it may be helpful considering an issue from the other perspective and not always presume ulterior motives.As an example, I have recently noticed substantially less traffic on chiswick high road, can I then conclude that the new bus stops and cycle lanes are really effective in reducing traffic?  Of course not, that would be too simplistic of an analysis of the matter - there will be a number of other factors to consider; such as road works, time of day, school holidays, m/a4 not busy, the traffic may be stuck at chiswick roundabout, and there may be other restrictions east and west - all having an impact (as well as the new road layout).  Someone else may experience the complete opposite, who is right? - it is not possible to determine whose perceived experience of the traffic on CHR is correct just based on anecdotes shared on a forum.  We need to measure traffic, air quality, safety stats, etc.This is why the designers rely on different ways of designing and model traffic, to try and simulate the impact of changes.  Nothing is perfect, but at least it is based on some form of reality and not perception.Finally, your point around the traffic flow designers intentionally causing traffic jams to get cars off the road seems highly unlikely, if you have evidence (no more anecdotes please)  please share.  town planners and road designers are professionals and just like a pharmacists, electrician or a doctor and equipped with the skills required for their role.  Not all of them are, of course, qualified but I would be hesitant to challenge anyone’s competence or a solution without understanding the full context and basis of design.

Ossian Olsén ● 970d