Forum Topic

"Cultural" and Postal Voting, HUGE potential for Electoral Fraud.

I have spoken about this in the past and was derided I recall? Possibly something about the usual unfounded and idiot "Racist!" accusations?Anyways, Ho Hum, This is from one of the Investment Forums I frequent:-X said:-  (sic) Yes I also understand that in some cultures groups within the UK will decide who they are voting for and they all get a postal vote and the elders will fill all the papers in.Y said:-What does this even mean?Z said:-  (sic)The Electoral Commission identified 17 local authority areas at particular risk of electoral fraud as far back as 2014 and widespread abuse of postal voting was seen as a significant factor. Democratic Audit have also written reports on the subject.Doesn't happen in Southall/Ealing/Acton of course.    🤣SOURCE: https://p2pindependentforum.com/

Rosco White ● 1150d37 Comments

Well, well, well eh? Ha, ha.  And "Family Voting" is relatively easy to spot, as opposed to questionable "Postal Voting""A crackdown to prevent voting malpractice is being proposed in Parliament after controversy over the town hall election in Tower Hamlets.Conservative peer Lord Robert Hayward will this week use a Private Members Bill to try to amend existing electoral laws which would give police clearer powers to stop relatives influencing family members at the ballot box.The move comes after a report by the independent election monitoring group Democracy Volunteers last Friday found “extremely high levels of attempted family voting” during the Tower Hamlets elections on May 5, which recorded a resounding win for Mayor Lutfur Rahman and his Aspire Party."

Rosco White ● 703d

Never mind 'susceptible to' - lets have some actual evidence of actual 'voter fraud'.  The Electoral Commission statistics show it's negligible.  If the US Republicans are any guide, most of their 'anti-fraud' campaigns are aimed at voter suppression, intended to make it increasingly difficult for certain communities and demographics to vote at all.

Peter Evans ● 1104d

Rosco can we please have some examples of which communities that are "patriarch dominated" you believe are susceptible to electoral fraud to clear up any ambiguity

Patrick X Green ● 1105d

'Cultures that are patriarch dominated' - so you mean Catholics and Orthodox Christians?

Mark Evans ● 1107d

“Rosco your prejudices are leaking out again, we spoke about making discriminatory statements without evidence.” You definitely & obviously can't read.I have already pointed out that Mr Barchuk posted an erudite contribution, with evidence.There's something wrong with you.

Rosco White ● 1109d

Rosco your prejudices are leaking out again, we spoke about making discriminatory statements without evidence.  Grow up please.CheersJay

Jay Bower ● 1110d

First, I said "potential", don't put words in my mouth, like some on here have attempted.To answer your question, usually cultures that are patriarch dominated - and there are many.

Rosco White ● 1110d

Can you please say which specific cultures you think are guilty of voter fraud please

Patrick X Green ● 1110d

You're just a Flag Waving Virtue Signaler, Jay Bower.            😉

Rosco White ● 1112d

The fact that the Electoral Commission (which has a statutory responsibility to ensure elections are properly carried out - the ERS is itself a campaigning organisation that has no statutory role) felt the need to do work to “address concerns about the vulnerability of some South Asian communities, specifically those with roots in parts of Pakistan or Bangladesh, to electoral fraud” is pretty good evidence. Carry on sticking your head in the ground if you wish.

Vlod Barchuk ● 1112d

    😆      👍

Rosco White ● 1113d

what caught my eye here was the weekly (paper? mag?) I've not previously come across, namely:"The Workers Red Socialist Pinko Lefty Liberal PC Woke Weekly".Rosco, I think that name needs shortening: it needs to be  pithy. Also using Red & Pinko is colour repetition, give or take a pantone or 3.  Why not substitute Green in there? They've got to be your cross-hairs too, surely? Bloody tree-huggers & climate moaners, and no doubt socialist to boot!!

Julian Bogajski ● 1113d

Why is it "nonsense"?  It's already happened in the past, so how can you possibly call it nonsense?I've never heard it called "Co-ordinated Voting" before, that's a good 'un!!  🤣The disquiet about Postal Voting is documented, it needs vastly stricter control & monitoring.No argument that's it's more convenient for many, yaddda, yadda, that's obvious, however there's huge potential for Fraud as I have stated, which you still seem to think doesn't exist?

Rosco White ● 1114d

You might be right but lots of people aren't going to be willing to bet their life on your knowledge of virology. The availability of postal voting will encourage people who are still fearful of visiting public places inside to cast their vote.As for the continued nonsense about the 'huge potential' for 'cultural' voting fraud, there is a deliberate conflation of a tendency with immigrant communities to try and co-ordinate voting to further their interests (a perfectly legitimate exercise of democratic rights) and fraud.No electoral system is perfect but postal voting seems to offer a better chance of a fair outcome because far more people who would otherwise be excluded from voting will participate than those voting fraudulently.

Mark Evans ● 1114d

I am sorry that you can't read plain English, Jay Bower.I have already explained why I posted those stats, but here again:-What is it about my accompanying statement, which was my point, "There's no smoke without fire" do you not understand?"There's no smoke without fire" - is this second explanation perhaps getting through to you now?Have you even bothered to read Mr Barchuk's posting, or maybe your English comprehension is letting you down again?"Nonsensical topic" eh?  According to who?  That's your opinion, which is fine, but many would beg to differ.Such Lefty attempts to always shut down legitimate discussion ended well in Rotherham etc didn't it? I note your continuing evasion of that particularly uncomfortable topic.It is a shame that many law abiding, normal people are fearful to discuss certain subjects because of The Shrieking Lefties shouting them down, invariably with totally unfounded "You're a Racist!" accusations.Asking a simple uncomfortable question, or even suggesting a possibility in Lefty Land immediately guarantees the Racist Card will be thrown at you.You will never shut me down, I will always ask uncomfortable questions or make uncomfortable observations.It's called free and open debate, something that The Left is hell bent on curtailing.      😆

Rosco White ● 1118d

RoscoIf you are aware of the stats you posted, why did you post them? to show what?  looking forward to your answer. Your inability to backup your claim on this nonsensical topic demonstrates your argument very likely stems from your own prejudices.If not, i'm all ears.

Jay Bower ● 1118d

Vlod - I am aware of these cases, is their skin colour the evidence to culture? as the ignorant title of this topic suggests?Rosco defined this culture link in his original post as "elders will fill all the papers in" As per the link you shared, the fraud carried out was largely via theft, bribery, mail redirection and threats of violence.Electoral reform society said:We do not believe electoral fraud is confined to Birmingham, to the Labour Party or, most importantly, to particular communities.If starting a hypothetical discussion that spot lights a minority like this, you should have good supporting evidence. Rosco has 0.Now where is this source that justifies the title? Cultural, Voting and Fraud.  I'm waiting.

Jay Bower ● 1118d

Jay Bower, your posting is nonsense.Like all Lefties you conveniently translate and read into something what you want to read, not what was actually said.Particularly your translation of the meaning of the word "potential", which in your world changes meaning to "definite".  I was very aware of the stats I posted, I'm a fair man.  What is it about my accompanying statement, which was my point, "There's no smoke without fire" do you not understand?I also note your glaring failure to comment re Rochdale etc, bit of an embarrassment to the cause that one for the PC Woke Lefty Liberals isn't it?!!Top Tip: Stop reading The Grauniad, and The Workers Red Socialist Pinko Lefty Liberal PC Woke Weekly.      🤣

Rosco White ● 1119d

Rosco is being unusually circumspect in talking about ‘cultural’ issues. We all know (but won’t say) that there has been a particular problem with electoral fraud by certain Asian politicians relying on the support of close family/kinship/religious ties. The biggest examples were the conviction of six Asian councillors for postal vote fraud in Birmingham (see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/councillors-guilty-postal-votes-fraud-would-shame-banana-republic-5350422.html) and Lutfur Rahman in Tower Hamlets who practiced a culture of cronyism, using patronage to his largely Bangladeshi friends to maintain his political power base, before his conviction for electoral fraud. Of course, electoral fraud is not limited to any one cultural or ethnic group but there’s no doubt it is unevenly distributed. The Electoral Commission produced a report in 2014 where they identified 16 areas with a greater risk of cases of alleged electoral fraud being reported (Ealing was not one of them), and they acknowledged that these areas “are also often home to communities with a diverse range of nationalities and ethnic backgrounds”. They go on to state that they “have begun further work to identify relevant evidence in order to help address concerns about the vulnerability of some South Asian communities, specifically those with roots in parts of Pakistan or Bangladesh, to electoral fraud” (you can read the Electoral Commission report here: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf). A feminist might note that strongly patriarchal cultures seem more prone to this type of behaviour – and most of the people convicted of it are men.Richard Mawrey, a QC who tries electoral fraud cases, has called for postal voting on demand to be scrapped because of the risk of fraud (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26520836); you’ll note the article I reference is on the BBC (not The Sun or Daily Mail). Will you take it seriously now?

Vlod Barchuk ● 1119d

Not particularly. Covid is spread largely indoors where there are significant numbers of people, with poor ventilation and time (probably 15 minutes at least) spent in their company; the vast majority of Covid cases that have been traced have been found to have been spread in care homes, educational establishments, workplaces and hospitals. A polling station in May will be a very low risk environment.

Vlod Barchuk ● 1119d

The only one with a knee jerk reaction here is Rosco, reads something on a forum and jumps at the chance to spread it. Vlod - the title is far from clear, define cultural?  substantiate this "HUGE" risk?  POTENTIAL voting fraud is not limited to any one culture, what a load of nonsense and hearsay.  Rosco you still got egg on your face with those stats you linked to, your response?Top tip: Stop reading the Daily Mail and The Sun.

Jay Bower ● 1120d

Postal Voting has a HUGE potential to be fraudulent, particularly in some cultures where "elders" may rule, as I say in my post.And I still believe.And it's not Racist to raise the point.The "You're a Racist" virtue signalling kneejerk accusations on here only foster situations as happened in Rotherham, Doncaster, Bristol, Rochdale, etc.Thank you and Good Night!  😆

Rosco White ● 1120d

But postal voting is good thing in Covid times surely

Chris Hurley ● 1120d

Rosco's argument was clearly set out in the title of the post: huge potential for electoral fraud. Postal voting cannot guarantee the secrecy of voting, which opens up the potential for bribery and intimidation; proving it is nigh on impossible but the risk is there which is why the expansion of postal voting was resisted until Tony Blair brought it about.

Vlod Barchuk ● 1120d

Rosco, Andy hit the nail on the head, you haven't thought your argument through nor paid careful attention to your sources.  The electoral commission stats are a rebuttal to your own argument, not in support of it. 592 alleged cases ​582! with no further action With 4 leading to convictions.Even if you assume the 592 were guilty,  over half of allegations were to do with campaigning.  Now put that into context with 40-50M people who voted in 2019 elections.You haven't provided any evidence at all, so I find it strange you are clinging onto this. p.sNone of the 4 convictions were in Southall/Ealing or Acton.

Jay Bower ● 1121d

Geez, you try to post nicely, and still......."Proven" is the key word, and note the number of "alleged" frauds at local elections.Some would say no smoke without fire?---------------------------------------------------------The UK has low levels of proven electoral fraud. In March 2020 we reported on the number and type of cases investigated by the police in 2019. This page provides an update on the number of cases and their outcomes. There remains no evidence of large-scale electoral fraud in 2019.592 cases of alleged electoral fraud were investigated by the police. Of these, three led to a conviction and an individual was given a police caution.This table shows the number of cases of alleged fraud the police reported to us, for each election held in 2019.Election                           Number of casesLocal elections                                       362UK Parliamentary general election               161European Parliamentary election                      21Non-election specific (for example, electoral registration)                                                         21Local by-election                                 12UK Parliamentary by-election                         7Mayoral election                                      6Combined authority mayoral election                 1Police and Crime Commissioner by-election      1https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/electoral-fraud-data/2019-electoral-fraud-data

Rosco White ● 1139d

Guess who it is? Yes thats right the one who has to constantly tell everyone shes not a racist. The penny never drops with some people does it.

Tony Mansell ● 1139d

People challenging your opinions and pointing out they are wrong is not the same as you not being allowed to hold them. I do try and keep things clear and simple so you will understand them but it looks like once again I have failed.You will not need to look far to see well evidenced research from state security organisations all over the world about how Vladimir Putin's government will seek to undermine confidence in free and fair democratic elections when it believes it will suit their purpose. That some agency is seeking to do this is undeniable because thousands of accounts are created across social media in advance of elections generally pushing the notion that the vote is flawed. This has happen most recently in the states but it is an international project with the Baltic States particularly targeted.The fact that you have formed an opinion based on a post on an internet forum that the scope for fraud is HUGE you have a responsibility to provide some actual evidence and explain how this might actually be happening. Quoting instances in which the authorities have identified potential risk areas undermines your own argument.What is clear that you haven't thought through the implications of what you are saying. If you genuinely believe election results can be manipulated then it must logically follow that the authority of any winner is illegitimate and the rule of law is undermined. That was the thought process of the people who went to the State Capitol and murdered police officers.

Andy Jones ● 1139d

A perfectly reasonable posting, keeping to the topic, and outlining a point of view without skewing the discussion onto red herring irrelevancies."However, if you are spreading disinformation based on prejudice about our elections you are serving the wishes of a hostile foreign power." is a very odd sentence to me, but Hey Ho, it's an opinion and we are stil allowed to express our differing opinions in this country.So far.    😁

Rosco White ● 1140d

Point taken about proxy and postal voting.However, while the scope for abuse in postal voting may be increased all the evidence suggests that it can't be done on the scale necessary to guarantee to affect a result.In person voting will still have a minor level of fraud. I remember regularly seeing voting cards left in a communal hallway for neighbours who I knew were away and unlikely to vote. If I had been so minded I could have organised for them to be used for a particular political party but the risk would have been asymmetric - if caught I would have gone to jail, if successful my favoured candidate would have got away with it.There are different ways postal voting could potentially be used for election fraud but, once again, nobody has ever managed to do this at scale. If they did audit procedures would quickly identify any irregularity. Once again, the risks of being caught outweigh any potential gain.We have to accept now that it has become part of the playbook of people who wish our democracy ill to undermine faith in the voting system. It is entirely predictable that Russian sponsored bot farms will start spreading fake stories in the run up to the May election about 'cultural' voting and the unreliability of postal voting and a few useful idiots in this country will help them spread them.As in American any minor discrepancy will be magnified into a HUGE fraud on the people. All these stories had in common that no proper evidence was ever produced and all that was proven for sure is that America had its most carefully scrutinised vote in its history. Certainly, if anyone has any proper evidence of potential fraud based on verified facts then they should let as many people know as possible. However, if you are spreading disinformation based on prejudice about our elections you are serving the wishes of a hostile foreign power.

Andy Jones ● 1140d

Ha Ha, right on cue, give it a rest Mr Jones.You want to completely shut down open comment and free debate with the now tiresome and standard accusation of "You're a Racist!". That schtick doesn't work anymore, people see through it.Sorry for having an opinion.Which differs to yours.The PC Woke Lefty Liberal Fascist Movement is alive and well!

Rosco White ● 1141d

Andy: Proxy votes and postal votes are not the same thing.But they both have one thing in common: neither one of them is a “blank cheque”. In the case of a proxy vote, for example, the person designated as the proxy must follow the instructions of the voter.As Rosco correctly points out, this system is open to abuse.

David Marshall ● 1141d

Rosco, it is hard to imagine a greater injustice than these lefty, woke liberal types interpreting your consistently negative viewpoint with regard to minorities as racism.That said it is probably worth pointing out that what you describe as 'culture group' voting is not fraud. It is perfectly within electoral law for someone to give another person their proxy, in fact if you look at your voting card it will explain how to do it.Based on what people from a range of political parties have told me, I doubt the number of people voting in this way amounts to more than a few hundred in a borough like Ealing. It was more common in Tower Hamlets where you had a large relatively recently arrived Bangladeshi community but the Asian population in Ealing is diverse and largely made up of second and third generation immigrants who will have their own views on local politics. There is no HUGE potential for electoral fraud.This idea of mass block voting has been brought up before  and I remember seeing figures that showed postal voting wasn't that much higher in wards in the west of the borough than anywhere else.I know from experience that no actual evidence will make you reconsider your views and we may have to accept that come the result of the next election you, and a few like-minded individuals will be storming Ealing Town Hall shouting 'Stop the Steal' because you don't trust postal voting.

Andy Jones ● 1141d

Same here, Chris. I normally see the walk to the polling station (via the cemetery, LOL) as part of the process, but this May I shall be voting by post.

Susan Kelly ● 1144d

I was sent a postal form even though I didn't request it

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 1144d

Normally I also prefer to vote in person, however this year I have applied for a postal vote just in case

Chris Hurley ● 1147d

To ensure that everything is above board in my opinion Postal Voting should be restricted to housebound residents only. Perhaps others have different views?I prefer to vote in person.

Jean F Fernandez ● 1149d